Posts by Let go of fear

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@Crazyguy: Do me a favor. Bring up the Marduk/Jesus analogy next time JW's come to your door or you attend a WT Bible study. Then describe to me in detail the look on their faces ; )

@ALL: Ok, I just had an "epiphany" about this whole YHWH in the NT thing. Actually, its more of a major DUH moment. Here's what I am now thinking: My understanding is that the WT believes the NT writers continued the Jewish practice of leaving YHWH in Hebrew characters when quoting the OT. So in addition to not being translated, God's name was also not to be pronounced when read. With that in mind then, why does it make such a difference to JW's whether or not the name in the NT was originally written YHWH or simply Kyrios??? Get what I'm saying? If the NT writers retained YHWH in Hebrew characters, it would be pronounced when read as Kyrios. If they indeed did use Kyrios in the originals, again, it would be pronounced (you guessed it!) as Kyrios. So given that there was apparently no Greek equivalent at the time, these are the choices the writers had. It would seem to me the more likely choice would be to simply use "kyrios" for God's name, considering that many who would become Christians did not have any understanding of Hebrew language, culture, customs, etc. God, why did it take me this long to come to this conclusion!!!??? Someone, please ask a JW about this, if I don't get a chance first!

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@Phizzy: I'm not sure what aspects of JW theology you have in mind, but I opened this discussion with the purpose of discussing the divine name in the NT. In that regard, any biblical reference guide for "kyrios" will at some point mention that it is used in greek manuscripts as a representation of YHWH. There is no debate among "real bible scholars" about that fact. What IS in question is A) How do we understand the difference between the "lords" (kyrios) as used in the NT and b) if it is clear that the "lord" in a particular passage is Jehovah/Yahweh (such as when OT is quoted), does the translator have a right to use the NAME instead of simply the "title"? Most biblical scholars, from what I can tell, would definitely object to the use in any NT translation of YHWH, especially when it is not part of a direct quote of OT. I agree with these scholars. But I also happen sympathize with the NWT's attempt at providing clarification, as imperfect and inconsistent as it can be. As I've already mentioned several times before, I do think there is a "third way" of sorts that would balance faithfulness to the original MS with attempts to clarify the text. For example, instead of using Jah in the main text, use footnotes instead to make a point that the translator believes "the lord" in a given passage refers to Jah. Or, perhaps just use the good old OT technique of placing LORD in all caps, at least in places where there is direct OT references.

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@IslandMan and Phizzy: I certainly agree that Romans 14:8 is an example where the NWT probably oversteps its reach in wanting to use the divine name. I've already mentioned in previous posts that I do not agree with ALL of the instances of "Jehovah" in the NT that the NWT incorporates. However, there are also many instances in the NT text where there is no quotation of the OT but where it is quite clear the "kyrios" in reference is God, and not Christ. A good example of this is James 5:10, 11, where there is no quotation of scripture but the writer if making reference to events discussed in the OT. Hence, the "kyrios" here is unquestionably Jehovah. So what's a translator to do in these circumstances? One possible solution is footnotes, stating something along the lines of "It is the understanding of the translator that "lord" in this passage is Jehovah/Yahweh" That way we could solve the problem of the translator going to far with trying to distinguish "the lords." I wish the NWT would have done something like this.

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@jhine and FayeDunaway: I know I'm going to sound like a cheerleader for "The Society," but how does the NWT in any way minimize the role of Jesus? I have copies of many translations and I fail to see how the NWT does what you are suggesting. I agree the divine name is overused in the NT, and have suggested a solution to this that I believe addresses the need to clarify (as much as possible) the meaning of "Kyrios" while at the same time not overstepping the proper boundaries of a translator (as the WT arguably has with many uses of "Jehovah"). But with that being said, is there a single instance in the NWT of the Greek word for "Jesus" being removed and replaced with Jehovah??? I guess my point is that we should not let our grievances toward the WT cloud our objectivity and through the baby out with the bathwater. Jason BeDuhn, for example, is a translation scholar (not in any way affiliated with JWs) that agrees with us that the name "Jehovah" is definitely used in many places beyond just OT citations, and that this is inappropriate. Nevertheless, he still believe the NWT is overall a very accurate and reliable translation, compared to many of the more popular translations on the market.

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@FayeDunaway: Thank you for the clarification. The last thing I want to do is misrepresent anyone's beliefs. I am somewhat familiar with the HCSB, but does it actually use LORD in all caps in the NT when quoting the OT? That's what I am after: a translation that is faithful to the Hebrew text (by using some form of YHWH), while also making some attempt in the NT to clarify the "lords" by designating YHWH with LORD in all caps (but clearly avoiding the trappings of using Jehovah/Yahweh). I know many translations that render YHWH faithfully in the OT, and a few that use LORD (again, all caps) in the NT, but NONE that combine the two (the one that comes closest to this that I am familiar with is Darby's translation, which uses Jehovah consistently in the OT, but uses it only in footnotes in NT passages where he feels YHWH applies-the main text still uses undistinguished "lords")

@Island Man: You make some very good points that are worth some serious consideration. I have also wondered at times if the NT writers purposely avoided using YHWH (except in abbreviated form-see Rev. 19) in order to avoid needless persecution. That would actually work with my theory that YHWH was there in the originals, but due to Jewish custom, was not only not translated but also not pronounced. However, I feel compelled to point out that you are not correct in stating that the LXX the NT writers were quoting from were later versions that only represented the name with "kyrios." Although they are not many, all LXX fragments dated prior to and INCLUDING the first century AD either use YHWH in Hebrew characters or use the Greek form "IAO" Even many versions discovered after the 1st century (all of which were probably produced by copyists who were Jews or Jewish proselytes) continue this pattern. Still, as you pointed out, it is entirely possible that it was the Christians, beginning with the NT writers themselves, that used Kyrios to represent in writing God's name in order to avoid further persecution. That being said, keep in mind--and I think this is an important point--it appears quite clear that ABBREVIATED forms of the name (such as Jah, and possibly IAO) were acceptable in both speech and writing. For example, it is interesting to note that even in the Greek versions that substitute YHWH with Kyrios, the expression "Alleluia" (Paise Jah) is never removed; it is even included in all manuscripts of Revelation, as well as all LXX MS. Just some food for thought : )

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@FayeDunaway: No, I do not believe that Jesus is/was "God," as in Yahweh/Jehovah. That is all I really care to say on the subject.

@: Yes! I completely agree, and this is what the NWT should have done, in order to avoid the problems it runs into by rendering Kyrios as Jehovah. It could have also place footnotes saying something like "The translators believe that "lord" here refers to Jehovah." (see Darby's translation, he actually does this in the NT). Are you (or anyone else participating in this topic) aware of any translation that consistently uses Jehovah (or Yahweh) in the OT AND used LORD in all caps in the NT when the NT writer is quoting divine name containing scripture? That is a translation I would like to get a hold of, because every translation I've come across, it's either no divine name or divine name where it doesn't belong!

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@jhine: While I am not interested in debating the Trinity, I have to completely disagree with you. If anything, the Bible, regardless of what translation you are using (even one that has removed YHWH from the OT), makes it quite clear that there is a difference between the Father and the Son (not to mention the holy spirit). But I understand where you are coming from, I have similar concerns about WTBTS. But trust me, as someone who was part of both Evangelical and Catholic churches growing up (long story, not enough time to explain here! lol), I can tell you that the churches of "Christendom" are equally obnoxious in their determination to assure themselves and others that their doctrines are "the truth." Although I am no longer a witness (nor do I believe any longer in the infallibility/inerrancy/inspiration/whatever of the Bible), I still believe that JW's, despite all their problems, have a much more reasonable and accurate understanding of the Bible overall. Believe me, the explanations they provided for 99% of questions I had, while not COMPLETELY satisfying, were night and day compared to the mumbo jumbo, confused and mystifying explanations I would always get from various priests, pastors and others. Just my opinion, I understand if others come to different conclusions.

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@jhine: I partially agree with you. There are undoubtedly a number of NT passages that quote an OT prophecy that contains the divine name but applied to the context of Jesus. A good example would be John the Baptist (or, excuse me, "baptizer" lol) quoting Isaiah's prophecy stating "make way for the path of the LORD". The original scripture John quoted contained YHWH, yet he is clearly applying this to the "coming" of Jesus. But he is most certainly not saying that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person/entity/being/whatever. A more reasonable conclusion would be that Jesus is God's chief representative, and therefore John's application of the original divine name containing prophecy is appropriate. By the way, although I'm sure "Watchtower thinking" does still linger with many ex-JWs, this is not necessarily a bad thing. Most Bible scholars I have researched (who are neither JW nor have any particular doctrinal investment) seem to agree with this understanding of the relationship between God and Christ (as opposed to the belief that Jehovah/Yahweh is the "Old Testament" name of God and Jesus is the "New Testament" name of God, a belief that I always found extremely bizarre even before I ever learned anything about what JW's believe).

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@Jerome: Again, I am not interested in debating the original pronunciation of God's name or any other biblical names. I'm a bit taken back by your statement "Names such as Jehovah or Yahweh are not in the Bible and Jesus never spoke such names. They were added." They were not "added." Those names are English translations of the Hebrew Tetragram, and the the tetragram appears some 6,000+ times in the original Hebrew manuscripts (plus some Greek translations), more than any other name in the entire Bible. If you are going to be fixated on things such as the fact that there is no "J" in Hebrew, then there are hundreds of names in the Bible (Joshua, Jeremiah, Jehosophat, etc, etc.) that we are going to have to get rid of. Finally, regarding your statement that Jesus did not ever pronounce God's name: Jesus, as well as his apostles, quoted from many OT scriptures that used YHWH. The Greek manuscripts substitute the name with "Kyrios" as there was no equivalent in the Greek language (the Jewish scribes having refused to translate the name), NOT because Jesus and his followers didn't believe that God had a personal name.

@Phizzy: That is exactly my point. I don't want to be dogmatic about this, its just my theory, but if the custom in the 1st century LXX was to leave YHWH untranslated, and the NT writers made great use of that same LXX, then they probably followed the same custom of using YHWH in OT quotations. It also stands to reason then that, due to their Jewish upbringing as well as their not being a real Greek equivalent of the name, they also follow the custom of pronouncing the Hebrew YHWH when read in a Greek text as "Kyrios (sometimes "Theos"). Then again, I am also open to the possibility that the NT originals DID use Kyrios to represent God's name. But then this opens a can of worms: how did one distinguish between the two "lords" (God and Christ)? If the early Jewish Christians were asked by a Gentile what the name of their God was, what would they tell them? That their God has no name?? That would be outright false, as the name WAS still known (even if not commonly pronounced) by Jewish Christians in the 1st century.

54

The Divine Name in the NT: Some Reflections

by Let go of fear in

i've been fascinated with this topic for some time now, almost to the point of obsession.

after researching the issue for several years, i have come to a conclusion/theory that i would love to receive some feedback on.

this theory of mine is one that will be somewhat unsettling to both those who believe the divine name was used in the original nt scripts as well as those who believe it wasn't.

Let go of fear

@TTWSYF: I'm not sure what you mean by God's name being "subjective." If you mean that there is no certainty in how it was originally pronounced, then I completely agree (this also applies to the name of "Jesus" as well as many other Biblical names).

@Giordano: Thank you for the kind welcome!

@All: Quite honestly, I'm not interested in debating the pronunciation of the name (there are plenty of other postings regarding this). I'm specifically interested in discussing the possibility of the tetragram having been in the original NT manuscripts. My belief (based on spending much time researching many sources) is that YHWH was rendered in the original NT scripts as Hebrew characters (see the LXX of the time), although probably not nearly as frequently as the NWT uses it. I also believe that due to A) the NT writers Jewish upbringing and B) the lack of a Greek equivalent to the FULL divine name, the early Christian congregations most likely did not pronounce it as liberally as the Watchtower believes that they did. It is on these points that I'd like to focus the discussion.